I had a discussion with a devout, evangelical X-tian last winter on a rowing training camp, and he allowed me to pick his brains about a topic that had been bothering me for some time: ghosts and god. Specifically, why one and not the other?
This question became intensified in my mind on the Easter holidays when I was touring old castles with Pirate's mom and little brother. Our tour guide at one particular castle kept getting destracted from the historical element of the tour to tell us about all the castle ghosts. Little Pirate (as we may as well call him, despite the fact that he's 26 years old and a certified engineer) is a devout evangelical christian and got all huffy over the mention of ghosts. Finally he got so fed up with the whole thing he left the tour, lest his ears continue to be accosted by such unholy utterances as the story of the spinning woman in the dungeon.
I find this very difficult to reconcile. If one believes in a god, an omnipotent, supernatural being, why cannot ghosts exist as well? How does one justify the existance of one but deny the possiblity of the other? It seems to me the one is just as un/likely as t'other. So what gives?
Here, then, are your questions:
1. Do you believe in a supernatural deity/god creature?
2. Do you believe in ghosts?
3. If you answered questions 1 and 2 differently, WHY??? (If you answered them the same than you may be wrong, but at least you're consistent.)
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12 comments:
I don't think they're as likely as each other. It seems rather more that ghosts are much much more likely than a God (but still not likely at all).
I don't believe in either but I find it very hard to imagine evidence that would convince me of the existence of an all powerful God (The difficulty would be in telling the difference between an immensely powerful alien being and such a God). Its quite easy to imagine convincing evidence for a ghost.
Hmmm, interesting. Does this make ghosts a more scientific concept than gods?
I'm a devout, going on evangelical, atheist, and I don't believe in ghosts any more than I do gods, but I can still scare myself sh*tless in the middle of the night *imagining* ghoulies and ghosties long leggedy beasties!
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I 'believe' in ghosts but not god.
Why? As RC says, ghosts scare me, god doesn't. I actually believe that ghosts are like a sort of past recording of events, bit like an old movie held within the fabric of a place (as opposed to nice normal binary which makes as much sense). Some very clever scientific chappies have managed to 'lift' ancient recordings from old stone walls, why not visual as well as sound?
This doesn't explain why they're scary though - that, I suspect is just conditioning, or the icy cold that accompanies them, or the wailing . . .
Wow! Really? You're comparing The Creator to spectors and spooks?
I'm not sure where to begin on this one. How do you draw the comparison?
God (in whatever form you imagine) is generally accepted as the Ever Has Been Maker of Everything We Know. Ghosts are described as spirits of the dead.
I would think that belief in the two are mutually exclusive. The dead cannot commune with the living. Just ask Houdini.
b: so they're not equally unlikely. fine, i can deal with that. sort of.
clacker: i don't know that it makes ghosts more scientific per se. i think what b is getting at is, um, well i'm not completely sure myself.
hey, anyone here know how to say "fuck off" in Espanol?
ziggi: i do find it perplexing that you can be frightened of ghosts, who, if they exist, have no power to hurt you, but you are not frightened of a supernatural being that has the power to torture you for eternity (and regularly exercises that power, if we are to believer our evangellical friends). do you not find your stance self-contradictory?
Rimshot: I draw my comparison on the basis that both ghosts and god are supernatural entities. so if one exists, there's no reason to say that the other possibly cannot, yet i know several christians who believe in god but insist that "there's no such thing as ghosts." this is inherently contradictory. i am curious as to how you can justifiy this position.
C.B. I get what you're asking and understand why the confusion (or do I?), but the question is flawed in that any Bible knowledgeable Christian will know that ghosts (in the traditional sense) are anathema to the workings of the universe. You CAN'T believe in God and ghosts and claim to believe the Bible. Personally, I believe in God and think ghosts (and aliens for that matter, but thats a whole different thing) are as fancifully imagined as ESP, telekenisis and poor republicans.
rimshot,
Wow, so many things to say.
First off, I guess, is that I'm _very_ familiar with the bible, so my atheist perspective is not born of ignorance of the Christian mythology. (12 years of catholic education, church 1-2 times weekly until I was 18, two aunts who are nuns.) But I am not aware of anything in the Bible that suggests ghosts can't exist. On the contrary, demons are frequently mentioned, even in the NT. What is to say that what we call "ghosts" today and what were called "demons" 2000 years ago aren't the same thing? Indeed, there are many Christians who do believe in ghosts. In Mexico on Cinqo de Mayo, The Day of the Dead, people believe that the ghosts of the departed walk amongst the living. It is a huge celebration, and the people celebrating are very devout Christians, mostly Catholic. For them, ghosts are not at all an anathema to the teachings of the Bible. So I'm puzzled and fascinated by those who feel this way.
Fundamentally, of course, the question of god vs. ghosts applies to every person of faith, not just Christians or even the other Abrahamic religions. So a broader explanation of why one supernatural being is more plausible than another is called for, beyond Biblical justfications.
And lastly, there are many poor republicans. The demographic base of the Republican party has shifted, and includes a great many lower-income families. This may be due to the well-documented correlations between
povery and lack of education,
lack of education and relgious fundamentalism,
and religious fundamentalism and political conservatism.
Obviously these are not 1:1 correlations, but they are statistically significant and causation is not difficult to imagine.
(And don't feel you have to get all worked up. I know you were being facetious, but since my rebuttal happened to be vaugely related to the discussion I thought I'd throw it in.)
no need to fear my getting worked up. I'm apolitical (is that a word?).
It would appear that I was projecting my own religious beliefs on Christians at large. I humbly stand corrected.
Here's my personal take on it: If, upon our death, we are sent to either Heaven or Hell, then there can be no ghosts on earth (ghosts being the souls/spirits of the departed. Demons, as you mentioned is another subject entirely.) If one is in Heaven, the land of ultimate bliss and neverending happiness, who would leave? If one is in Hell, it is assumed there is no esacape. Ergo (don't know if I'm using that right, I've just always wanted to get an 'ergo' in there somewhere) no ghosts.
What I was saying was that the existence of god is much less likely than the existence of ghosts. But ghosts are already very unlikely.
Relatively small things could convince me of the existence of ghosts whereas I'd need a mountain of evidence to be convinced that there was a god. Thats because alternative explanations (such as super intelligent aliens) would be almost always be more likely.
Furthermore I'm not even convinced that there is a meaningful way of defining a god which is not logically contradictory.
Fundamentally although believing in a god is like believing in a teapot orbiting the sun the teapot is much much more likely to exist.
Barnaby - I guess that would depend on your definition of God.
...please where can I buy a unicorn?
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